Them, There, Then!
I created this challenge because I got fed up with being accused of spiritualizing everything.Spiritualize the audience relevance.
Spiritualize the time statements.
Spiritualize the personal pronouns in the eschatological scriptures.
This is before we get into content, context, syntax, tense, passive, active, original language, etc…
I'll give you two examples, though hundreds exist.
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants, things which must SHORTLY come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
This plainly says John was being shown some things within Revelation, that were to happen shortly after John received this “apokalupsis” (Revealing) Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Futurists are still insisting this "shortly" didn't mean "shortly" nearly 2,000 years ago when John received the vision.
“Yeah, but God's time isn't our time”
“Oh, but a day is as a thousand years" We’ve heard a thousand reasons, but none redefine shortly to mean 2,000 +/- years and counting, or that when it occurs, it will all happen shortly.
Audience Relevance/Personal Pronoun (Double-Whammy)
Matthew 24:33 So likewise YOU, when YOU shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Jesus is on the Mount of Olives with only 4 Apostles present (Mark 13:3)
He says, to them, there, then: “So likewise YOU, when YOU shall see all these things” Read it again and ask yourself “who is the YOU”? I say the YOU here is them, there, then. Christ tells them, there, then, “when YOU SHALL SEE ALL THESE THINGS”, I believe he meant them, there, then. Most Futurists, who believe the End Times are in our Future, believe the YOU mentioned in this verse; twice, refers to some mythical generation of people that are going to witness all the signs given in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, Luke 21). We mostly agree, but we believe the 1st-century generation was the actual generation of people that did witness all the signs given in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, Luke 21).
The YOU here gets spiritualized to every successive generation of humans beyond that 1st-century generation.
Eschatology (The Study of the End Times) is the single largest written topic in the Bible itself. No other subject has more scriptures attributed to it. We could sit on social media or the telephone for weeks, discussing many more scriptures, but that's just too long, and too messy. How do you eat an elephant? One-piece at a time. Please let me know if you're interested in my (following) debate offer.
***This challenge has been refined since the release of my 2012 "Last Days" book***
If you’ve been taught wrong, you’ll teach wrong! Futurist Christian
Eschatology is guilty of Projecting: Fulfilled Eschatology requires a
minority of interpretation!
Futurist Eschatology requires a majority of interpretation, yet many
of its adherents often accuse believers of Fulfilled Eschatology of this
tactic.
The best baseline premise for Fulfilled Eschatology is as follows:
Fulfilled Eschatology uses a minority of altering, changing, and/or
redefining of words, phrases, audience relevance, time statements, and
personal pronouns in the scriptures that speak directly about the Last
Days/End Times.
Conversely; Futurist (Unfulfilled) Eschatology can only be
derived from scripture by altering, changing, and/or redefining the
majority of words, phrases, audience relevance, time statements, and
personal pronouns in the scriptures that speak directly about the Last
Days/End Times.
I challenge ANY Christian believer of Futurist (Unfulfilled) Eschatology to disprove this premise!
The simple truth of and in Fulfilled Eschatology is this:
I can
demonstrate Fulfilled Eschatology from the Bible and not have to change,
alter, or redefine one word.
An additional truth and fact is this: Futurist Eschatology can not be
shown without altering, changing, and/or redefining the majority of
words, phrases, audience relevance, time statements, and personal
pronouns in these scriptures that speak directly about the Last Days/End
Times
I therefore propose the following challenge to any Christian who
believes Fulfilled Eschatology must alter, change, or otherwise redefine
a majority of words, phrases, audience relevance, time statements, and
personal pronouns in these scriptures that speak directly about the
Last Days/End Times.
I've offered this debate for more than 12 years..............
Here it is; very simple.
This debate would be held in a chatroom where we can talk to each other over
microphones.
Ever been on paltalk?
A chatroom website; thousands of chatroom, in all kinds of categories.
I can show you how to sign up for an account and how to use it.
I allow 60-90 minutes for the debate, usually another 30 minutes for a Q & A
session at the end, so those in attendance can ask us both questions.
I ask 2 weeks notice.
YOU pick the date, time, which Bible version (English) we use for the debate,
and YOU pick a moderator.
The debate text is Matthew 21:23 (Where/When Jesus enters the Temple) to Matthew 26:66 (with parallel references in Mark 13 and Luke 21)
The Olivet Discourse, and Temple message, just prior to going over to the Mount
of Olives, where he has a private meeting (No Pharisee, Sadducee, Multitudes,
Chief Priests or Scribes) with Peter, James, John and Andrew.
You only get to quiz me on that text, and my beliefs about that text.
This debate is not about "Preterism" because I'm not an official spokesperson for a belief that has a multitude of variations, so I'm not the Preterist poster-boy.
You debate ME on what I believe; NOT what you've heard, read, or seen that other "Preterists" believe.
Here's the simple premise for this debate.
Who changes/alters and or redefines more word/phrases in the text, FROM how
they appear on the page?
My affirmative: It is the Futurist who must change/alter and/or redefine a
majority of; not only words and phrases, but audience relevance, time
statements, and the personal pronouns involved in said verses.
A very simple challenge, with a limited amount of scripture, but is a condensed
amount of "End Times" and/or "Last-Latter Days" scripture.
I'm not in the debate to change your mind, or to FORCE you into believing
ANYTHING...................................I hold debates for those in
attendance, and others who will listen to any podcast of it, later.
As this debate is about what each of us believe in reference to the subject
text stated, you are not allowed to present other’s opinion, beliefs,
documentation, referenced materials, etc…
No scholars, no theologians, no church fathers, no church
creeds, no church councils, ecumenical decrees, or any other use of another’s
beliefs, in our debate. This is between you and me, and the text of Matthew 21:23 – 26:66
(with parallel references in Mark 13 and Luke 21) This is the extent of what this debate offer involves. If agreed to, we’ll get together to figure out the
specifics, and time allotments for our respective affirmative and negative
segments. I await your response.Email - myinnereye@live.com - Subject Line - Debate Challenge